Transcript 0:00 [gentle music] This week's podcast is supported by Dal Pozzo Advogados. 0:05 Dal Pozzo represents some of Brazil's biggest infrastructure groups, and helps foreign clients navigate the country's complicated legal and regulatory system. 0:14 Before we start this week's show, I'd like to remind you that The Brazilian Report is funded by subscriptions and support from loyal readers. 0:22 As well as subscribing to our website and getting exclusive daily content on Brazil and Latin America, you can also treat our staff to one to five cups of coffee every month, and in return, you'll get exclusive benefits like special newsletters and behind-the-scenes content, as well as a shout-out here on our podcast. 0:39 And today, I want to thank all of our Buy Me a Coffee members, Pam Ludwick, Leslie Seal, Caroline Hubert, Mark Hillary, John Thomas III, Louise Renz, Erwan, Orlando Black, Steve Knapp, Aaron Berger, James Coney, Kars Vriezewijk, Alistair Townsend, Peter Abrahamson, Jim Awofadeju, Michael Fryer, Mila Reinacido, David Dixon, Josette Ozi Stankovich, Emerging Market Muser, Yarden Iftach, Tonika Thompson, Anderson Da Silva, Cat Crema, Peter Sufrin, Anna Lund, and someone who chose to remain anonymous. 1:18 If you too believe in the importance of independent journalism, and if you want to hear your name on our podcast, head over to buymeacoffee.com/brazilianreport and subscribe to one of the membership tiers. 1:29 And if you can't make a monthly commitment, you can still tip us the occasional cup of coffee to give us the energy we need to cover a country as complex as Brazil and a region as complex as Latin America. 1:41 We appreciate all your support, so click on buymeacoffee.com/brazilianreport to find out more. 1:49 [gentle music] No one country can thrive in isolation, and with the complex global challenges facing the world in recent years, from pandemics to war to climate change to economic inequality that transcends borders, the need for multilateral cooperation has become even more significant. 2:15 And for Brazil, multilateralism is well and truly back on the menu as President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva has embarked on a seemingly nonstop road trip of international visits since taking the job in January, and foreign policy has taken a so far unprecedented prominence on the Brazilian political agenda. 2:35 My name is Ewan Marshall, I'm deputy editor at The Brazilian Report, and this is Explaining Brazil. 2:40 [gentle music] In September 2021, in the middle of the COVID pandemic, United Nations Secretary General António Guterres issued a report calling for stronger governance on key issues of global concern. 3:01 And as part of this plan, the UN set up a high-level advisory board to come up with ideas and recommendations on how to achieve effective multilateralism. 3:11 And one of the seats on that board went to Brazil's very own Ilona Szabó, founder and president of the Igarapé Institute, a think-and-do tank committed to human, digital, and climate security. 3:23 And we're delighted to have Ilona as our guest on this podcast today to speak a bit about this initiative and where Brazil fits into all this, and where do we go from here. 3:33 Ilona, thanks for joining us, and just to start off, could you give us a bit of background into how you got involved with this initiative? Sure. So first of all, it's a pleasure to talk to you today. 3:44 Uh, this is a, a, a very interesting, uh, project that I was involved, uh, I would say a very demanding one that, uh, uh, brought a lot of responsibility, but came, uh, out of, uh, the involvement that, uh, my organization, the Igarapé Institute, had on an initiative led by the secretary general called Our Common Agenda. 4:04 So we were an organization that already had some involvement with the briefings with the executive boards of the UN, so we used to be called to, to speak about these issues of global concern, and I'll explain what these issues are. 4:18 And, uh, in 4:20 2020, we were called actually to join a, a bigger process where we were responsible to do a big consultation, uh, a global consultation on proposals that were coming out of a, a review of the UN 75th anniversary. 4:35 Uh, the member states, uh, came out with 12 big priority areas, uh, and asked the secretary general to reflect and respond on that, just, uh, thinking about the, the, the future, uh, of the organization, the future of the multilateral system. 4:50 So, uh, that's when we, we started to, to get involved in, in this initiative. 4:56 Uh, we were responsible to consult the track of We the Peoples, which were basically, uh, the institutions that were not member states or not youth, because there was a separate track to listen to youth, and this is also a very interesting highlight o- of this process. 5:13 So we were, uh, left to hear from, uh, about these proposals from, uh, cities, from, uh, civil society organizations, from parliamentarians, from philanthropists, from business sector, from like, um, um, 5:29 several, uh, voices that are generally not heard in multilateral process, which formally really involves states, countries that have a vote, uh, in one of the organizations. 5:41 So we started then to understand that, uh, uh, there was an opening for something called networked multilateralism, where, uh, you have different levels of decision-making for sure, uh, in terms of who can actually in the end of the day vote, but that you have to listen to, uh, to include voices that are directly affected, uh, by the proposals that are being discussed and being agreed upon on this big, uh, uh, world, uh, you know, multilateral forum. 6:12 And the end result of this consultation was this report, right, entitled A Breakthrough for People and Planet. Tell us about that and how that was all put together. 6:22 So from this process, from this consultation, uh, there was a report written, and there also one of the suggestions was the creation of this high-level advisory board, uh, which is then, uh, selected, nominated by the Secretary General. 6:37 12 people, uh, uh, were there, and that was a very ambitious [laughs] let's say, uh, uh, mission to basically, uh, listen to, uh, different constituencies again, but focus on how to improve international cooperation through a more effective and inclusive multilateralism that involve, uh, involves other, uh, voices. 7:02 And, um, thinking basically how to strengthen the governance to deliver, uh, better what we call global public goods or issues of global concern. And this report is based on six, what you call transformative shifts. 7:20 So, you know, what were these main pillars? So we s- uh, selected a few of these global issues because there are many, and there were other processes going on. 7:30 Uh, we selected within the, the, the board, uh, multilateralism, per se, so how to improve what is inclusive, effective networked multilateralism, and thematic areas such as, uh, peace and security, uh, digital space, uh, what we call people and planet, which is a very broad climate governance lens, uh, also the reform or of the international financial institutions, the IFIs. 7:59 So these were the, let's say, the, the main areas that we then devoted, uh, uh, eight months, uh, uh, to, to learn, to listen, to then, uh, decide what would be our proposals, uh, with this aim of improving, uh, the, the multilateral response and deliver of, uh, the responses that people needed, people that were affected, uh, by these big areas, uh, needed to, 8:26 to listen to. 8:26 And hopefully now our work, uh, let's say the substantive work was delivered to the Secretary General on April 18th this year, and now we have until September next year to work, uh, towards the adoption of hopefully many of these proposals by the member states of the United Nations in what we call the Summit of the Future, which is this big summit, uh, where the Secretary General also, uh, is, you know, aiming to, to, uh, let's say it's his legacy, uh, uh, possibly one of his last meetings as, as head of the UN, the summits as head of the UN, and where he will present his contributions and hope, uh, I think, uh, to, to leave his legacy in terms of, uh, improvement of the multilateral system. 9:11 And the report itself, I mean, I've had a look through it, and it's very global. I mean, there, there are very few mentions of specific countries or specific examples. What was the thinking behind that? Sure. 9:21 So, you know, in the, in the board, we had to think about a global response. 9:25 But, uh, uh, doing that, uh, very specifically, uh, the people that were selected to compose this board were people with a very interesting and diverse background and not representing, but from all the regions of the world. 9:41 So there was an intergenerational component. 9:44 There was, you know, from the, uh, 25th, uh, uh, 25-year-old until the 83-year-old 'cause, uh, uh, the, the panel, uh, was headed by two former heads of states, uh, the, the former president of Liberia, Ellen Sirleaf Johnson, and the former prime minister of, uh, Sweden, uh, Stefan Lofven. 10:01 And so the other 10 members were from, uh, also, uh, different geographies. 10:06 And that on purpose had to reflect that we had to think about, uh, different realities, but specifically since it was inclusive multilateralism, uh, we had to think about the regions and the places, uh, in the world that have, let's say, less conditions or voices or voting power in different multilateral organizations. 10:28 So for sure there was a lot of emphasis, uh, in countries of the developing world, not only the least developing countries as we call, but also the middle, uh, income countries because, uh, we know that when it comes to these big issues, uh, they also will need support. 10:45 For instance, uh, for a green and just transition, uh, you will need, uh, to allow, uh, middle-income countries to access the, the kinds of finance in the multilateral system that today would be only, uh, accessible for the least developed countries. 11:01 So there was a lot of, uh, let's say, thinking, discussions, but also, uh, a, a very strong lens that whatever we're talking here, uh, even if it's, uh, with a global lens, we have to take into consideration the needs and the interests of the people that are, uh, lagging behind. 11:20 And so that was, uh, uh, uh, let's say, the, the most, uh, important thing. 11:25 [upbeat music] Okay, so we'll go into the details on these main pillars and how they relate to Brazil in just a moment, but first, a quick break. 11:33 [upbeat music] Hello, this is Gustavo Ribeiro, editor-in-chief of The Brazilian Report. This week's podcast is supported by Dal Pozzo Advogados. 11:50 Dal Pozzo represents some of Brazil's largest infrastructure groups and helps foreign clients navigate the country's complicated legal and regulatory systems. 12:00 During the May 10th Brazil Summit in New York City, an event hosted by the Financial Times, and of which The Brazilian Report was a supporting partner, we caught up with Luis Namura, a Brazilian engineer, serial entrepreneur, and public speaker. 12:16 Luis Namura has founded 15 companies and launched or invested in over 300 businesses around Brazil and abroad, and we discussed with him how Brazil can make the leap to become a developed economy. 12:30 Our conversation was recorded in New York City and will be featured over the next few episodes, and here's episode two. Luis, thanks for joining us again. 12:44 So let's talk about AI, which has become a sort of obsession and is already changing the way we work and live. And as expected, Brazilians are among the most curious people about the tool. 12:57 According to data from Semrush, Brazil is one of the top 10 countries accessing ChatGPT, for instance. 13:03 And in your videos and speeches to companies, you always say that society adapts to technology, but never the other way around. How does this premise work in the case of AI and the labor market? 13:17 It's a very interesting question because we are here talking only because the early monkey faced the world and adapt himself to that world, if you, if you can think about that. 13:30 So adaptation is the word that make humans be in the world by today. You understand that? So if you don't adapt to the changes of the world, you can't survive. Mm-hmm. 13:44 Alvin Toffler said in the book The Third Wave, he said something very interesting, "Change is the process by which the future invades our lives." So changes happen every day, every time. You must adapt yourself to that. 14:01 If you don't adapt yourself to your, to that changes, you'll be like the dinosaurs. You will disappear. But we are not talking about a third or a fourth wave. We are talking about a Tsunami, 14:16 a digital Tsunami, that impacts all the days, all the people. So what w- we can do is to adapt to that, that kind of a process, and use I- AI for everything you wanted to do. 14:32 Uh, I ask my team to, to use ChatGPT day by day, because if they don't use and other guys in other company u- use that, the productivity of des- that company will be greater than the productivity of my team. 14:46 So it's impossible not to use ChatGPT or other AI. During Web Summit Rio, I moderated a panel called AI: Future or Fear? 14:58 So I assume you are on the side thinking that AI is more about creating new opportunities rather than, as historian Yuval Harari argues, hacking the human operating system. 15:14 Uh, when the revolution, industrial revolution happens in England in 1700s, uh, every people is become astonished with what machines can do. What happened? Many jobs disappeared, and other jobs appeared. 15:31 So you must adapt. I, I think the word that makes sense is to adapt yourself to the new technology, because the new technology will invade our lives. So what you can do if you are in the ocean and comes a Tsunami? 15:48 It will invade your life. You must protect yourself. How do you protect yourself? Study, use, and adapt yourselves to that new technology. There are no other way. And when you say adapt, what exactly do you mean? 16:03 Take ownership of this new technology. Is the only way. If you don't do that, other guys will do that. And if someone need the guys that can do that, they will not ask for you. 16:15 Will ask, will ask for the guy that adapted himself to the new technology. Thanks, Luis Namura, for your insights. That's it for this week. Now let's get back to the show. 16:27 [upbeat music] We're back with Ilona Szabó, founder and president of the Igarapé Institute, and one of the brains behind the Breakthrough for People and Planet report from the UN's high-level advisory board on effective multilateralism. 16:43 Ilona, based on the report's six transformative shifts that we talked about, I was wondering if you could go through a few of them and maybe kind of highlight the relevance for a country like Brazil, you know, maybe with some concrete examples. 16:55 Let's pick, let's pick the, the shift, uh, people and planet, shift two. 16:59 I think, uh, there's a lot there because we, we dealt with the shift, uh, in a frame of the triple planetary crisis that deals, uh, with the, the, let's say, the, uh, consequences of climate disruption, biodiversity loss, and pollution. 17:15 And it's very important that this frame actually puts all these issues together because think about a country like Brazil, and we have several proposals there, for example, for, uh, a global incentive, uh, a mechanism to protect standing forests that, uh, would go beyond, uh, only carbon credits, which we also include in the report. 17:37 And we say we need to find ways to pay for conservation, not only for additionality. 17:43 Um, we need to make sure the whole discussion on the transition and the minerals that we need for the transitions is very transparent and open. 17:53 So for instance, where we have, uh, critical minerals, rare earths in territories that are biodiverse to reach, what will be the decision? How we're gonna weigh the needs, uh, that come together? 18:06 So how we're gonna also help the countries, uh, in the developing world to access the necessary funds to turn their, you know, energy matrix to renewables. 18:19 Brazil has already a very competitive, um, let's say, position here when it comes to electricity, but how we're gonna green our industries, how we're gonna green our agro, you know, uh, our agribusiness, how we're gonna be, let's say, uh, aligning, uh, the policy that we have today to protect our biomes, uh, especially, uh, the Amazon, but all the other biomes with also a green transition in the sense of our Whole energy matrix. 18:48 So really aligning that and then take into consideration also the issue of pollution that comes then the notion of the, the circular economy. So in this, um, 18:58 let's say, in this session, in this shift, uh, there are two main packages of proposals. One that, uh, is a pact for people and planet, and the other one is a decarbonization, uh, package. 19:10 And there, uh, we, we thought about, you know, the phasing out of fossil fuels, uh, in a, let's say, in a stage that takes into account, uh, uh, where the developing countries are. 19:22 So there's the, the whole principle of, uh, common but differentiated, uh, responsibilities, which is very important when it comes for, you know, the, the ones, uh, the countries that pollute more are more, uh, responsible, but we cannot exempt, uh, the others from also a common responsibility. 19:39 So how to balance, uh, the needs, the stages, and the developing, uh, let's say, calls from, from the people. So a lot of thinking, and I think for Brazil is a question also that is very close to, to the discussion. 19:53 So people and planet, I would say the most proposals there speak very, very strong to the discussions that we're having here. 20:01 And Ilona, not only were you the only Brazilian on the board, you were also the only Latin American. Do you feel that the country and the region were sufficiently represented? No, for sure. 20:13 And unfortunately, uh, you know, uh, you, you feel a lot of responsibility because first when you're there from a specific sector, right? 20:20 I mean, we were in the, in the board, there were, uh, former and active governor, like government officials. There were, uh, people with private background in the civil society academics. 20:31 So there was a different, uh, set of, let's say, uh, backgrounds, uh, uh, represented from different and all the regions of the world. 20:39 So it was a small board compared to, let's say, if we wanted to, to really do a, a big job. But we came out of these global consultations where we were really broad. And during the board process, we also listened. 20:51 We had like dozen and dozens of round tables. We had so many events, interviews. 20:57 So we, we had also, uh, a global consultations where we invited anybody that wanted to send proposals about, uh, the issues that we're dealing with. 21:07 So again, we tried our best to listen, but in the end of the day, I had to, let's say, uh, in, in, in inverted commas, to fight for Latin America, for developing countries. 21:17 And I wanted also to be sure that I was not only, let's say, defending a middle-income country, but that I was looking into the ones that were lagging much behind. So it had to be good. 21:28 And also Brazil, not only as a, let's say middle income power, but also as a role model for, you know, the whole developing world. And we know that that's very important. 21:39 If Brazil goes right and, and has, like they say, the select the right policies, uh, there will be lots of people following. 21:46 But if Brazil selects the wrong ones, it's very bad, not only for Brazil and the people of Brazil, but for the developing world. 21:54 So again, I was thinking with this mindset, and it was unfortunately in a moment where in terms of the, the government, uh, that was in power, there was no cooperation. 22:06 So generally what would happen when a person is appointed to these kinds of boards is that you would have the support and the dialogue with your foreign ministry. 22:15 And you know, like right now I'm back dialoguing with them, but the report is done. 22:20 So of course, informally, I heard a lot of people that I thought was important to listen to because they were involved in these discussions for much longer than I was. But that was an informal consultation. 22:32 Some people didn't feel, of course, so let's say, uh, um, comfortable because they had to speak in their personal capacity, could not speak, you know, in their official capacity. 22:43 Uh, I did my best to, to, to do some closed consultations. I, I had, uh, events here, for example, with the Brazilian Center for International Relations, and invited people to, to share their views. 22:55 So we, we tried our best, but I believe that if it was in a moment where dialogue was more fluid and open, uh, we would have a better result, I'm sure. 23:06 Because, you know, I had to, to kind of, uh, struggle with all the, the trade-offs and, and, you know, the decisions of what I would really push for, uh, in, in, uh, in my capacity there and what I would, uh, uh, try to, to reinforce with my colleagues in the board. 23:21 And I would have done a better job, of course, if I could be in a, in a more proactive and open dialogue, uh, with the government at that time. 23:31 But did my best [laughs] and I hope in the, in the other opportunities I have, uh, that will be the case. 23:37 And it's interesting that you mention government there because Brazil hasn't exactly been the most conducive country to multilateralism in the last four years, has it? 23:45 I mean, from the first four or five or so months of the Lula administration, are you, are you seeing a difference? Are you perhaps more hopeful that some of these suggestions might actually be implemented? Sure. 23:57 So I think that's a, that's a very important, uh, recognition. You know, Brazil is back to the multilateral world, and Brazil was missed in the multilateral world. 24:07 So a selection of a person from civil society to this board is much a reflection of where we were. 24:15 Uh, you know, a, a government official, as there was, for example, a minister from Singapore would not be allowed, uh, or would not have, you know, the, let's say the, the backing of the, the former government to be a member. 24:29 So I think, uh, also my participation there was, uh, a reflection of, uh, who was supporting multilateralism was civil society, not government. 24:38 So we were there, uh, you know, uh, holding the flag and saying, "We need cooperation. We need much more cooperation. 24:45 That's the only way we're gonna, uh, you know, uh, survive, uh, all these, uh, challenges and, and global threats that we're gonna face." 24:52 So- When it comes to this government, what I can say is that for sure, uh, the impetus and the, let's say, the, the, the whole, uh, way, uh, it, it just started and even before, uh, uh, really the, the taking office, you know, President Lula started traveling abroad, started saying, uh, uh, that he would be back to, to agreements to, to the UN, uh, as a forum, uh, to, um, discussions that were so close to Brazil, but they were so important for global survival. 25:24 So of course, the climate and the Amazon being a very, very significant one, I think that's, uh, the, the flag that the president, uh, uh, the elected president at that time was waving. 25:36 And, you know, he went to the COP, uh, in, in Sharm El-Sheikh in, in Egypt, the, the, the climate, uh, uh, summit. 25:44 Uh, and he was there, uh, you know, before taking office and he was treated as the, the formal government also, you know, like it was kind of everyone wanted to talk to Lula because he was bringing the agenda back even before, uh, you know, the day he took office in January. 25:58 So a very, very, uh, let's say, uh, noticeable presence and comeback, you know, and also, uh, Brazil, uh, in all these agendas are, you know, I think the, the peace and security, uh, the intents and, you know, might agree or not, but, uh, with the, the positions about the Ukraine and Russia war, uh, about, uh, you know, the Security Council. 26:20 So these issues are back in the agenda. 26:23 Uh, and I would say something that is more domestic, but I can see Brazil engaging this globally, uh, possibly, uh, soon, uh, is the whole issue of how to, how to regulate the digital space. 26:34 This is a very, very urgent and, and, uh, absolutely needed conversation, not only, let's say disinformation and, and, and, uh, social networks, but also AI. 26:45 And I can see that what we're facing here, uh, domestically will have a lot of impact in the discussions as well. So this, I think is a, is a clear agenda for Brazil, uh, to be engaged and not to speak about the G20. 27:01 I mean, Brazil will, will hold the G20 presidency and the whole issue on sustainable finance from a more like a, a just let's say a, a, a, um, 27:12 a, a, a better, uh, reflected, uh, uh, uh, financial system also in, in vis-a-vis today's, uh, uh, geopolitics, uh, will be in the agenda for Brazil, uh, uh, in, in the G20 discussions next year. 27:25 So, and, you know, Brazil wants to hold a COP also in 20- uh, uh, in, in 2025. 27:31 So I would say all the agendas that we're dealing globally, Brazil has, have already, uh, you know, ha- has positioned itself as like, we are back, we're gonna discuss this. 27:41 Some others, even if it's not, let's say a top priority for foreign relations are very advanced domestically and will end up, uh, being important for the global discussions. 27:51 And you mentioned that this report is working towards the Summit of the Future in 2024. What are you hoping to come away with from that summit? 27:59 And, you know, what are your hopes for multilateralism globally and in Brazil? Yeah, so I think it's a very significant, and I think that only in the name, if you just think, uh, you know, a Summit of the Future, right? 28:12 I mean, uh, what, what, what does that mean? It means that, uh, you are gonna, uh, really, uh, have a moment, uh, to agree the proposals, the ways forward, uh, that could allow our humanity to survive. 28:29 So it's really to talk about the shared concerns, the shared challenges, but also especially the shared solutions. 28:38 And I think this will be, uh, definitely a, a, a special moment, uh, where I think, let's say if I would put in my words, and it's not the Secretary General words, but is the moment where, uh, he really, uh, would have the, the opportunity to reinvigorate multilateralism to just say, okay, we came all over, you know, from, from the creation of the League of the Nations and the United Nations at a time where the world was in disarray. 29:08 It was like coming out of, you know, the greatest wars we had. 29:12 Um, we, we created this multilateral system, you know, we have gone through so much, and here we are, uh, with all this knowledge that we have today, uh, with all these problems we have today, and the only certainty that we have is that if we don't cooperate, if we don't really work together towards, you know, overcoming these challenges and not leaving people behind, we might not leave a hospitable world to the next generation. 29:40 Thanks for coming on the show, Ilona. Hope to speak to you again soon. Thank you so much. Wonderful to speak with you. If you like Explaining Brazil, please give us a five star rating wherever you get your podcasts. 29:51 It takes only a second and it'll help us reach a wider audience. Or better yet, sign up for the Brazilian Report, the journalistic engine behind this podcast. 30:00 We have a subscription-based business model, and your memberships fuel our journalism and keep us going and growing. 30:06 And thanks to our subscribers, we've been able to cover Brazil and Latin America extensively, and for our work, we have won and been shortlisted for multiple international journalism awards. 30:16 And more recently, we won Best Newsletter for a local or small company in the Americas Digital Media Awards by the World Association of Newspapers and News Publishers. 30:25 And in order to keep doing that award-winning work, we need your support. So go to brazilian.report/subscribe. This week's podcast is supported by Dal Pozzo Advogados. 30:37 Dal Pozzo represents some of Brazil's biggest infrastructure groups and helps foreign clients navigate the country's complicated legal and regulatory system. I'm Euan Marshall. Thanks for listening. 30:48 On Explaining Brazil, we'll be back next week. [outro jingle]
